That troll hammer...

[deird1]

I've seen a few comments recently on Buffy picking up Olaf's hammer - and how the fact that she could so easily when Spike couldn't lift it shows just how much stronger Buffy is than the average vampire.

Which I'm finding odd, because I always assumed it was because the hammer is a mystical item. So Buffy, as the Slayer, has special picking-up-hammer powers that are denied to Spike.

...am I completely alone in this assumption? Does everyone else in the whole world take it as Buffy being ridiculously strong compared to Spike?



(Yes, she's stronger than him. But not by that much...)

Comments

[boot_the_grime.livejournal.com]

She can't be much stronger than him, since every fight they ever had was evenly matched, and he had a good chance to beat her a couple of times. And Buffy is certainly not a bad fighter.

I'm not sure if Spike is an average vampire, though (except in the sense that he's not an Ubervamp or something like that). He's a much better fighter than most, for starters.

[deird1]

*nods*

That's what I was thinking. But then everyone's using the hammer-lifting as proof that she's way stronger, and that the other instances of them fighting are retcons...

[a2zmom]

I agree that she's not that much stronger. So your explanation works for me.

[angearia]

I've always thought that Slayers were stronger than vampires (and Angel outright says it), where as vampires are faster than Slayers and more aerodynamically gifted (like how Angel demonstrates his climbing abilities in "Habeas Corpus").

I think she is significantly stronger than a vampire, but not to an extreme degree. And I think there's something interesting in the idea that the object is mystical and that's why she's more suited for wielding it. There's also the idea that Buffy wanted to lift it more, she was more determined to carry it, and that factors in.

[speaker_to_customers]

I think you are alone in that assumption. It's a troll hammer. Why would the Slayer have any special powers with regard to a troll hammer?

It's canon that Angel is stronger than Spike, and that Spike's victory in 'Destiny' was against the odds. It's also canon that Buffy is stronger than Angel; he says so to her face, plainly and unambiguously, in 'Sanctuary'.

Buffy is, therefore, significantly stronger than Spike.

Although the strength difference was undoubtedly exaggerated in 'Blood Ties' for the sake of a cheap joke at Spike's expense.

[deird1]

It's canon that Angel is stronger than Spike

Uh... it is? Since when?

[angearia]

I think their fights are balanced because he's faster than she is and he's probably better at reading her attacks and adjusting since he's a very skilled fighter (shown by how he approaches fighting Illyria).

But I think Spike's speed makes up for the deficit in Buffy's strength. Momentum gives power to punches. So while he can't benchpress as much as she can, he can probably come close to hitting her with a similar amount of force because of speed.

(I've talked about this too much with my PhD in Physics dad...and asked him to write meta on Slayer strength)

[slaymesoftly]

Couple of things - I'm not sure how much of the "Buffy is much stronger than Spike" is canon, and how much fanon. Although, I think she does say it somewhere... I don't know that it jarred me one way or the other, but I would probably have said it was a Slayer thing. She is stronger than Spike, probably, but not that much. Of course, Spike's strength and fighting abilities tend to come and go based on the needs of that particular episode... Consistency, thy name is not Whedon! Anyway, I think the having her be able to wield the hammer when he couldn't pick it up was just meant for a humorous bit and not to be taken overly seriously. That's how I saw it.

[shipperx]

Why would a Troll hammer have a preference for a Slayer? Trolls and Slayers are unrelated entities and the Troll isn't exactly necessarily on the light and the right so it isn't going to go all 'anti-vampire' because it has moral issues.

[beer_good_foamy]

Meta reason: the hammer was introduced to be used in the finale. When Spike tries to lift it in... "Blood Ties", right? ... it's too early in the season and the hammer isn't ready. Kind of like how you can't open certain doors in a video game until you've killed all the lower level bosses.

Slightly less meta reason: Um... with all those gods running around, maybe Thor decided to cut Buffy a break and make sure the hammer remained where it was? Or something?

But especially in light of the Scythe, your explanation works great. Like you say, Buffy is stronger than Spike, but he can't lift it at all and Buffy lifts it without any effort.

[shipperx]

I think there's something interesting in the idea that the object is mystical and that's why she's more suited for wielding it.

My only question is why would it being mystical make it prefer Slayers? Trolls are hunted by slayers (I assume since the way that Buffy got it was because of hunting Olaf) and vampires are mystical too. Since trolls think babies make delectable meals, I don't see troll hammers having some sort of moral issue causing it to disfavor vampires in favor slayers because Slayers are better people (generally speaking).

[shipperx]

But fighting isn't simply brute strength. Strategy, speed (and as FFL made clear) luck are also involved. Picking up a heavy object my in some ways involve skill (there are proper lifting techniques) but also brute strength.

[speaker_to_customers]

Pretty much any episode in which they've interacted physically prior to 'Destiny'. It's particularly evident in 'In The Dark'.

It is, of course, totally logical that Angel will be stronger than Spike. He is physically much bigger and has been a vampire for 127 years longer.

[shipperx]

With the Slayer Scythe it makes sense. It was specifically fashioned for Slayers and a slayers primary enemy are vampires. I can understand their building in a slayer preference/vampire repellent quality.

But Trolls aren't necessarily 'good' creatures. Olaf was wanting to eat innocent babies. So I'm not sure why a Slayer would necessarily have more mystical affinity to it than any other supernatural entity.

[diamondtook]

I think it's more in a "Angel is a bulkier guy, has more muscles" kind of way. Even vampires must have some sort of degree of differentiation, right? Angel beat Spike up on a number of occasions (FFL, most of Destiny), if that counts.

[shipperx]

Isn't there a 'vampires grow stonger with age' trope or is that just True Blood?

[deird1]

I don't think vampires are mystical in the same way that Slayers are. They're sort of magicky, yes, but they're also a fairly normal part of the Buffyverse. The Slayer is different.

[deird1]

Pretty much any episode in which they've interacted physically prior to 'Destiny'. It's particularly evident in 'In The Dark'.

*is puzzled*

I don't see it.

[deird1]

No, I think that must be True Blood...

[beer_good_foamy]

No, but Slayers are inherently mystical and have all sorts of weird powers that vampires don't have - especially in season 5 (what with Buffy being able to put herself in a trance, talk to spirits, prophetic dreams, closing portals, etc etc.) OK, so it's not a perfect fit, but I think it works better than the idea of Buffy being roughly, what, 10 times stronger than Spike in a dead lift?

[diamondtook]

I've never thought Buffy could pick it up because it was mystical, but I never thought it meant she was very much stronger than Spike either. I do think it was played for laughs, but that doesn't discount it. I like Stormwreath's meta on the subject, and his conclusion that Buffy's strength changes based on what is needed for a given situation. With a vampire, she is stronger, so that she can defeat him, but not much stronger. With five vampires, she is much stronger so she can handle that. With the troll hammer, she had enough strength to lift it, but in actuality this was much more strength than Spike actually has, because vampire strength doesn't fluctuate. In all honestly, I think this is probably just an explanation for the writers' inconsistencies in storytelling, but I like it.

I also like the idea that vampires are faster and Slayers are stronger.

(I haven't responded yet to the post you are referring to, I may copy this response and reuse it).

[shipperx]

But after the first couple of seasons they seem pretty consistent overall that Buffy is stronger than most vampires. She dispenses with them easily. And at some point or another I think both Angel and Spike mention that she's stronger. I think generally they avoided too many visual cues about it because it tended to look silly (such as the time they tried to make it look like teeny-tiny SMG was carrying Michelle Trachtenberg and the proportions just looked... unweildy. Troll hammer wasn't as visually silly-looking. But I never understood why a troll hammer would necesarrily be 'easier' for a Slayer. the mythology doesn't overlap and both Slayers and Vampires are demon-powered so I'm not sure where there would be an inherent preference (unlike Slayer Scythe which was a Slayer-specific weapon).

[diamondtook]

The Master? The Prince of Lies? :P

[deird1]

If I say vampires grow weirder with age, does that cover it?

:)

[deird1]

To clarify, I don't think it's an inbuilt property of the hammer, per se. It's not like anyone is going to create a troll hammer and go "Hmm, let's add a Slayer-friendly characteristic, too."

It's more that there's an inbuilt property in Slayers, of an over-all affinity with mystical items...