That troll hammer...

[deird1]

I've seen a few comments recently on Buffy picking up Olaf's hammer - and how the fact that she could so easily when Spike couldn't lift it shows just how much stronger Buffy is than the average vampire.

Which I'm finding odd, because I always assumed it was because the hammer is a mystical item. So Buffy, as the Slayer, has special picking-up-hammer powers that are denied to Spike.

...am I completely alone in this assumption? Does everyone else in the whole world take it as Buffy being ridiculously strong compared to Spike?



(Yes, she's stronger than him. But not by that much...)

Comments

[boot_the_grime.livejournal.com]

She can't be much stronger than him, since every fight they ever had was evenly matched, and he had a good chance to beat her a couple of times. And Buffy is certainly not a bad fighter.

I'm not sure if Spike is an average vampire, though (except in the sense that he's not an Ubervamp or something like that). He's a much better fighter than most, for starters.

[deird1]

*nods*

That's what I was thinking. But then everyone's using the hammer-lifting as proof that she's way stronger, and that the other instances of them fighting are retcons...

[angearia]

I think their fights are balanced because he's faster than she is and he's probably better at reading her attacks and adjusting since he's a very skilled fighter (shown by how he approaches fighting Illyria).

But I think Spike's speed makes up for the deficit in Buffy's strength. Momentum gives power to punches. So while he can't benchpress as much as she can, he can probably come close to hitting her with a similar amount of force because of speed.

(I've talked about this too much with my PhD in Physics dad...and asked him to write meta on Slayer strength)

[a2zmom]

I agree that she's not that much stronger. So your explanation works for me.

[angearia]

I've always thought that Slayers were stronger than vampires (and Angel outright says it), where as vampires are faster than Slayers and more aerodynamically gifted (like how Angel demonstrates his climbing abilities in "Habeas Corpus").

I think she is significantly stronger than a vampire, but not to an extreme degree. And I think there's something interesting in the idea that the object is mystical and that's why she's more suited for wielding it. There's also the idea that Buffy wanted to lift it more, she was more determined to carry it, and that factors in.

[shipperx]

I think there's something interesting in the idea that the object is mystical and that's why she's more suited for wielding it.

My only question is why would it being mystical make it prefer Slayers? Trolls are hunted by slayers (I assume since the way that Buffy got it was because of hunting Olaf) and vampires are mystical too. Since trolls think babies make delectable meals, I don't see troll hammers having some sort of moral issue causing it to disfavor vampires in favor slayers because Slayers are better people (generally speaking).

[speaker_to_customers]

I think you are alone in that assumption. It's a troll hammer. Why would the Slayer have any special powers with regard to a troll hammer?

It's canon that Angel is stronger than Spike, and that Spike's victory in 'Destiny' was against the odds. It's also canon that Buffy is stronger than Angel; he says so to her face, plainly and unambiguously, in 'Sanctuary'.

Buffy is, therefore, significantly stronger than Spike.

Although the strength difference was undoubtedly exaggerated in 'Blood Ties' for the sake of a cheap joke at Spike's expense.

[deird1]

It's canon that Angel is stronger than Spike

Uh... it is? Since when?

[slaymesoftly]

Couple of things - I'm not sure how much of the "Buffy is much stronger than Spike" is canon, and how much fanon. Although, I think she does say it somewhere... I don't know that it jarred me one way or the other, but I would probably have said it was a Slayer thing. She is stronger than Spike, probably, but not that much. Of course, Spike's strength and fighting abilities tend to come and go based on the needs of that particular episode... Consistency, thy name is not Whedon! Anyway, I think the having her be able to wield the hammer when he couldn't pick it up was just meant for a humorous bit and not to be taken overly seriously. That's how I saw it.

Empresspatti says...

[(Anonymous)]

I think the writers wrote it for a laugh and didn't think one more itty bitty bit about it.

[shipperx]

Why would a Troll hammer have a preference for a Slayer? Trolls and Slayers are unrelated entities and the Troll isn't exactly necessarily on the light and the right so it isn't going to go all 'anti-vampire' because it has moral issues.

[deird1]

To clarify, I don't think it's an inbuilt property of the hammer, per se. It's not like anyone is going to create a troll hammer and go "Hmm, let's add a Slayer-friendly characteristic, too."

It's more that there's an inbuilt property in Slayers, of an over-all affinity with mystical items...

[beer_good_foamy]

Meta reason: the hammer was introduced to be used in the finale. When Spike tries to lift it in... "Blood Ties", right? ... it's too early in the season and the hammer isn't ready. Kind of like how you can't open certain doors in a video game until you've killed all the lower level bosses.

Slightly less meta reason: Um... with all those gods running around, maybe Thor decided to cut Buffy a break and make sure the hammer remained where it was? Or something?

But especially in light of the Scythe, your explanation works great. Like you say, Buffy is stronger than Spike, but he can't lift it at all and Buffy lifts it without any effort.

[shipperx]

With the Slayer Scythe it makes sense. It was specifically fashioned for Slayers and a slayers primary enemy are vampires. I can understand their building in a slayer preference/vampire repellent quality.

But Trolls aren't necessarily 'good' creatures. Olaf was wanting to eat innocent babies. So I'm not sure why a Slayer would necessarily have more mystical affinity to it than any other supernatural entity.

[diamondtook]

I've never thought Buffy could pick it up because it was mystical, but I never thought it meant she was very much stronger than Spike either. I do think it was played for laughs, but that doesn't discount it. I like Stormwreath's meta on the subject, and his conclusion that Buffy's strength changes based on what is needed for a given situation. With a vampire, she is stronger, so that she can defeat him, but not much stronger. With five vampires, she is much stronger so she can handle that. With the troll hammer, she had enough strength to lift it, but in actuality this was much more strength than Spike actually has, because vampire strength doesn't fluctuate. In all honestly, I think this is probably just an explanation for the writers' inconsistencies in storytelling, but I like it.

I also like the idea that vampires are faster and Slayers are stronger.

(I haven't responded yet to the post you are referring to, I may copy this response and reuse it).

[fangfaceandrea]

I always thought so too, Probably Slayers are Closer to God-hood than Vamps. I never thought It was an issue of Strenght. An honestly it was made as a Joke on Spike not being able to lift it.

[quinara]

I don't think there's any sort of indication that it's to do with Buffy's slayernes... I always assumed it was a combination of Buffy being stronger than Spike generally and also that she spends all of The Gift in limit break mode, to use Final Fantasy vernacular - ie. dramatically she was in a state of adrenaline-fuelled last-stand superstrength, like Boromir standing through about six arrows being shot in his chest, which probably doesn't exist, but does in film/TV land and we're just supposed to go with it. She did knock the punching bag off its chain, after all, which would have taken an immense application of force to do it the way she did (and isn't something she does again).

[rebcake]

I like angearia's explanation about strength vs. velocity vs. skill and all that science stuff. quinara also has a good point about Buffy being hyped up past normal limits at the point she picks up the hammer.

I do think that Buffy is stronger by a fair amount than the average vamp and most of the "special" ones too, which doesn't rule out the unexpected happening in a fight. In TGIQ when Spike asks Angel if they can just put Buffy in a box, Angel replies that "she's pretty strong", which always implied to me that Angel & Spike together couldn't expect to best Buffy.

But, yeah, the strength thing waxes and wanes all over the place. Angel's poor showing against Willy's flimsy liquor cage in What's My Line is at one end of the scale, whereas at the other he's knocking down brick walls, no prob.

I don't see any reason to think Slayers have any special power over random mystical objects, though. I'd need another, clearer example. For instance, if the Diagon Sphere blinked out unless it was held by anyone but Buffy or something like that. But she runs across lots of cool weaponry in her travels (the demon's soul sword in Older and Far Away for example), and it doesn't seem to set off anything more in her than, "shiny."

[adrienne88.livejournal.com]

Could it be because Buffy was the one to defeat Olaf and therefore the hammer is now 'hers'?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I was just about to post that and I saw you beat me to it. :-)

There's mythical precedent for heroes who kill trolls to be able to wield their immense, giant-forged weapons, after all:

His eye, darting eagerly about,
glimpsed a heavy sword hanging on the wall,
a massive weapon made by the giants,
huger than any human being
besides himself could swing in battle,
forged in the giants' fabulous smithy.
The slayer of Grendel seized it by the hilt
and flourished it fiercely, fighting for his life;
he swung the snake-patterned sword forcefully
and hit the sea-hag on her hideous neck,
smashing her spine; the sword drove on
through her doomed body and she dropped to the ground.
His blade dripping blood, Beowulf rejoiced.


:-) Buffy conquered Olaf so she has the right to bear his hammer...

[ms_scarletibis]

Buffy having "special pick up hammer" powers makes no sense to me. There's no reason for her to have access to a troll hammer...

Also, Angel explicity says that Buffy is stronger than him; why wouldn't she therefore be stronger than Spike?

Another thing--Buffy can take on five vamps at once and be fine. Do you think that if Spike were to take on five slayers at once, that he'd not end up dust at the end of it? I don't think he'd survive. He is a skilled and aged fighter--of course. Stronger? Not so much.

[deird1]

Are you reading carefully? I've explicitly said that Buffy is stronger than Spike.

What I'm disputing is that she's so much stronger that she'd be able to lift something without thinking while he wouldn't be able to pick it up at all.

[rahirah]

Well, he does fight demons, some of which are stronger than Slayers, so I don't think it's totally impossible that Spike could take on a group of Slayers and survive. It's also possible he'd end up dust in the wind. Honestly, provided that both parties are competent fighters, this is something that's totally dependent on the needs of the plot. If you need the protagonist to beat a group, you come up with a way to make it plausible. If you need them to get killed/captured, you come up with a way to make that plausible, too. Angel may have beat Spike out in raw strength, but Spike nonetheless captured him in In The Dark.

[gabrielleabelle]

...I've always thought Slayer and vampire strength were both dependent on immediate plot needs. Kinda like the speed of space travel in B5. Trying to make sense of it is an exercise in futility.

[deird1]

*nods*

Generally speaking, yeah.

[rahirah]

IIRC at one point someone (one of the writers? Espenson, maybe?) claimed that there was supposed to be something in one of the episodes about the hammer only being usable by the person who defeated the previous owner, but it got cut or forgotten somehow. And I can't remember exactly where I read that, so take it with a grain of salt.