deird1: Willow, with text "I am Willow. I am Death. 'Kay?" (Willow death)
[personal profile] deird1
On Mark Watches this morning, someone made the following comment:
I still have pretty much zero sympathy for Faith because I'm too busy sympathizing for the people she's assaulted, raped, tortured, and murdered. I'm actually kind of offended by the writer's attempt to make me feel bad for her because she is an objectively terrible human being.

- characters who assault people do not deserve sympathy
- characters who rape people do not deserve sympathy
- characters who torture people do not deserve sympathy
- characters who murder people do not deserve sympathy

So, out of all the Buffyverse characters, this person likes... Tara? And maybe Dawn?

Call me crazy, but I'd say that if you can't sympathise with characters who do terrible things to people, maybe BtVS is not the show for you.

Date: 2012-04-11 02:37 am (UTC)
velvetwhip: (Fanfiction by Gabrielle)
From: [personal profile] velvetwhip
Yeah, I would have to agree with you. I am no fan of Faith, but that's not because I can't accept characters with serious flaws and/or who've done bad things.


Date: 2012-04-12 10:44 pm (UTC)
shipperx: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shipperx
That's tempting some to pull out the Angel/Angelus dichotomy (which isn't applicable for some of the later transgressions and yet is still clung to)

Date: 2012-04-11 02:59 am (UTC)
trouble: Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it (Default)
From: [personal profile] trouble
I got very confused at first and wondered if he was talking about Spike, or Dru, or Angel. Amongst, as you point out, others. Why Faith at that point and not Angel?

Date: 2012-04-11 03:13 am (UTC)
snowpuppies: (Default)
From: [personal profile] snowpuppies

Also, people who have black&white views…probably BtVS is not the best show for you. Unless of course, you delight in lying to yourself and living in delusionland. Then…I'm sure it's perfect.

Date: 2012-04-11 03:50 am (UTC)
verity: buffy embraces the mid 90s shades (Default)
From: [personal profile] verity

Date: 2012-04-11 07:39 am (UTC)
zeborah: Zebra with stripes falling off (stress and confusion)
From: [personal profile] zeborah
Well, I do like Tara and Dawn. But, yeah.

Date: 2012-04-11 09:32 am (UTC)
elisi: (Seven and Ace)
From: [personal profile] elisi
Went and replied - it was IRRESISTIBLE!

Date: 2012-04-11 11:44 am (UTC)
elisi: (Buffy - My Hero)
From: [personal profile] elisi
I'm glad you pointed out the comment, because I really *am* interested. I have people on my flist who can't stand Spuffy, and others who can't watch Eleven. But I still get on with them perfectly well, because that's just how they work, and I respect that. So I'm curious as to someone who sets such high standards gets on with a 'verse like BtVS/AtS...

Date: 2012-04-11 03:46 pm (UTC)
lusciousxander: (Loving Life by crystalsc)
From: [personal profile] lusciousxander
I'm not a Faith fan, but I'm a huge Xander fan, and Xander is one of the most flawed characters in the show. I LOVE flawed characters who make mistakes! They're more interesting.

Date: 2012-04-11 04:41 pm (UTC)
ms_scarletibis: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ms_scarletibis
Faith is one of the better layered characters in the 'verse. She's far from perfect, but she's complex, interesting, and terribly gray. I <3 her.

Date: 2012-04-11 05:53 pm (UTC)
bruttimabuoni: (wreak my revenge)
From: [personal profile] bruttimabuoni
Complexity: bad.

Forgiveness: impossible.

Remorse: what?

It's a very tough line to take. And, as many have agreed before me, an odd one for a fan of this show.

Date: 2012-04-11 07:18 pm (UTC)
talibusorabat: That may be the wrong sort of question (Quote: Wrong question)
From: [personal profile] talibusorabat
I love it when people try to pass off moral judgements as "objective," because there's nothing objective about it. Like you said, everybody in BtVS-verse is pretty fucked up. Almost all of them have done "objectively" horrible things at one point or another, and whether you can forgive them for that or not is not so much up to the writer as it is up to the viewer. Maybe you think Angel is hot, and that's why it's easier to forgive him than Faith. Maybe you saw Faith's actress in another show and hated her, and that's why she'll never be able to redeem herself in your eyes. Hell, maybe you didn't get enough sleep the night before and so were feeling particularly cranky when watching her redemption arc, and that cranky first impression has colored all later viewings. Who the hell knows.

Morality. It is not science.

Date: 2012-04-11 07:20 pm (UTC)
zanthinegirl: (Destiny Spuffy)
From: [personal profile] zanthinegirl
here on s rec from petzi

I find Mark's attitude puzzling. But then again for me it's the fact that actions have consequences, and that redemption is always possible that really makes Buffy (and AtS) work for me. The thing he hates is the whole point.

Date: 2012-04-11 09:54 pm (UTC)
timetravellingbunny: (Default)
From: [personal profile] timetravellingbunny
Mark didn't say that - he loves Faith and he adored "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary". It's one of the commentators on his website.

Date: 2012-04-11 10:07 pm (UTC)
zanthinegirl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zanthinegirl
Ah! that does make more sense. Reading comprehension fail!

I'd kind of given up on Mark; he's just so OTT. Might have to check out what he's done lately though...

Date: 2012-04-11 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] gabrielleabelle
As someone who almost gave up on him, I've found his last several posts much more substantial and interesting. Though I hadn't read any of his AtS posts except for the Faith episodes. But his Buffy ones have certainly improved.

Date: 2012-04-11 10:13 pm (UTC)
zanthinegirl: (Destiny Spuffy)
From: [personal profile] zanthinegirl
Oh? Good to know! I'll totally check him out again in that case.

Date: 2012-04-11 09:58 pm (UTC)
timetravellingbunny: (Buffy Faith)
From: [personal profile] timetravellingbunny
Exactly. I bet that this same fan doesn't feel the same about some other characters who have also murdered, raped and/or tortured, even more people than Faith.

Me, I love morally ambiguous and messed up characters. I've always loved Faith, even when she was working for the Mayor and murdering people on his orders. I love and have sympathy for her, and Spike, and Angel and Darla and Willow and Anya... So, yeah.

Date: 2012-04-13 10:31 am (UTC)
ext_30116: (Default)
From: [identity profile]
And to me Five by Five was one of the most powerful Angel episodes ever. I actually wept.


deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)

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