That troll hammer...

[deird1]

I've seen a few comments recently on Buffy picking up Olaf's hammer - and how the fact that she could so easily when Spike couldn't lift it shows just how much stronger Buffy is than the average vampire.

Which I'm finding odd, because I always assumed it was because the hammer is a mystical item. So Buffy, as the Slayer, has special picking-up-hammer powers that are denied to Spike.

...am I completely alone in this assumption? Does everyone else in the whole world take it as Buffy being ridiculously strong compared to Spike?



(Yes, she's stronger than him. But not by that much...)

Comments

[beer_good_foamy]

Yeah, but Buffy isn't Superman strong (if she was, she wouldn't occasionally have trouble with vampires, let alone once or twice be almost matched by well-trained humans). If it's weight alone that makes Spike completely unable to even budge the hammer while Buffy lifts it like it was foam rubber, she'd be a LOT stronger than she's ever shown to be in any other situation.

...Cue MST3K mantra. :) The big question is - who carried the hammer back to the Magic Shop afterwards?

[fangfaceandrea]

I always thought so too, Probably Slayers are Closer to God-hood than Vamps. I never thought It was an issue of Strenght. An honestly it was made as a Joke on Spike not being able to lift it.

[quinara]

I don't think there's any sort of indication that it's to do with Buffy's slayernes... I always assumed it was a combination of Buffy being stronger than Spike generally and also that she spends all of The Gift in limit break mode, to use Final Fantasy vernacular - ie. dramatically she was in a state of adrenaline-fuelled last-stand superstrength, like Boromir standing through about six arrows being shot in his chest, which probably doesn't exist, but does in film/TV land and we're just supposed to go with it. She did knock the punching bag off its chain, after all, which would have taken an immense application of force to do it the way she did (and isn't something she does again).

[rebcake]

I like angearia's explanation about strength vs. velocity vs. skill and all that science stuff. quinara also has a good point about Buffy being hyped up past normal limits at the point she picks up the hammer.

I do think that Buffy is stronger by a fair amount than the average vamp and most of the "special" ones too, which doesn't rule out the unexpected happening in a fight. In TGIQ when Spike asks Angel if they can just put Buffy in a box, Angel replies that "she's pretty strong", which always implied to me that Angel & Spike together couldn't expect to best Buffy.

But, yeah, the strength thing waxes and wanes all over the place. Angel's poor showing against Willy's flimsy liquor cage in What's My Line is at one end of the scale, whereas at the other he's knocking down brick walls, no prob.

I don't see any reason to think Slayers have any special power over random mystical objects, though. I'd need another, clearer example. For instance, if the Diagon Sphere blinked out unless it was held by anyone but Buffy or something like that. But she runs across lots of cool weaponry in her travels (the demon's soul sword in Older and Far Away for example), and it doesn't seem to set off anything more in her than, "shiny."

[adrienne88.livejournal.com]

Could it be because Buffy was the one to defeat Olaf and therefore the hammer is now 'hers'?

[shipperx]

Buffy isn't Superman strong

At least not until space-frakking (sorry. Couldn't resist). No, she isn't as strong as Superman, but who is? And Superman has his strength paired with virtual invulnerability (which is why Kryptonite has to be brought around all the damn time). Invulnerable superheroes are a problem... just ask Heroes.

[shipperx]

It's all fanwank so one is as good as another, but this one has never crossed my mind. I simply assumed Spike couldn't pick it up. Buffy could. Buffy's stronger.

[shipperx]

Strangely I always thought that Slayers were somewhat less mystical than vampires. Vampires are literally 'brought back to life' and actively 'live' from mystical entities of demons. Slayers only have the aspect of the demon in them and are largely human (at least until Buffy gets brought back from the dead twice which I do tend to think sets her apart somewhat).

[ms_scarletibis]

Older vamps seem to be less susceptible to sunlight and fire. The Master--he was so old bones were left behind. That can't not mean something...

[ms_scarletibis]

Co-signed.

[ms_scarletibis]

Buffy having "special pick up hammer" powers makes no sense to me. There's no reason for her to have access to a troll hammer...

Also, Angel explicity says that Buffy is stronger than him; why wouldn't she therefore be stronger than Spike?

Another thing--Buffy can take on five vamps at once and be fine. Do you think that if Spike were to take on five slayers at once, that he'd not end up dust at the end of it? I don't think he'd survive. He is a skilled and aged fighter--of course. Stronger? Not so much.

[deird1]

Are you reading carefully? I've explicitly said that Buffy is stronger than Spike.

What I'm disputing is that she's so much stronger that she'd be able to lift something without thinking while he wouldn't be able to pick it up at all.

Empresspatti says...

[(Anonymous)]

I think the writers wrote it for a laugh and didn't think one more itty bitty bit about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, then back to the group fights point--

We've seen Buffy take on multiple vamps on her own. Do you think Spike could do the same, but with multiple slayers?

[deird1]

No idea. Is it relevant?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I was just about to post that and I saw you beat me to it. :-)

There's mythical precedent for heroes who kill trolls to be able to wield their immense, giant-forged weapons, after all:

His eye, darting eagerly about,
glimpsed a heavy sword hanging on the wall,
a massive weapon made by the giants,
huger than any human being
besides himself could swing in battle,
forged in the giants' fabulous smithy.
The slayer of Grendel seized it by the hilt
and flourished it fiercely, fighting for his life;
he swung the snake-patterned sword forcefully
and hit the sea-hag on her hideous neck,
smashing her spine; the sword drove on
through her doomed body and she dropped to the ground.
His blade dripping blood, Beowulf rejoiced.


:-) Buffy conquered Olaf so she has the right to bear his hammer...

[deird1]

People who quote epic poetry in response to Buffyverse musings are awesome.

:D

[(Anonymous)]

Very much so, yes.

Generally speaking on the strength of vampires and slayers--if they're more even keeled, it wouldn't make a difference. But since slayers are inherently stronger? It makes a big ass difference.

Not to mention, and this is just Buffy specifically at the moment, but she'd have to be very much stronger (proportionally speaking) for someone 5'3" and under one hundred pounds, taking on demons and vampires alike so much larger than she is. A good example of this would be Jonathan "dressed up" as a demon very much larger than himself, but he only had the strength of his human/non-magicked self.

Re: Empresspatti says...

[next_to_normal]

This. The mystical connection explanation never occurred to me because I just assumed their relative strength was entirely dependent on the joke the writers wanted to make in that episode and has absolutely no bearing on how well-matched they are in past or future episodes.

ETA: As if we needed any more proof that the writers just make this shit up as they go along, check out how Olaf, in "Triangle," was turned into a troll by Aud, an ordinary human at the time. But by "The Gift," he's apparently a troll god, which makes his hammer the appropriate weapon to fight a god. So... ordinary humans can now create gods just by doing a spell? Um. Yeah. Okay. Maybe Buffy should've asked Anya to turn her into a troll god in order to fight Glory.

[deird1]

Maybe Buffy should've asked Anya to turn her into a troll god in order to fight Glory.

Heh. Someone should fic that.

[ms_scarletibis]

Sorry--somehow got automatically logged off.

[gabrielleabelle]

...I've always thought Slayer and vampire strength were both dependent on immediate plot needs. Kinda like the speed of space travel in B5. Trying to make sense of it is an exercise in futility.

[rahirah]

IIRC at one point someone (one of the writers? Espenson, maybe?) claimed that there was supposed to be something in one of the episodes about the hammer only being usable by the person who defeated the previous owner, but it got cut or forgotten somehow. And I can't remember exactly where I read that, so take it with a grain of salt.

[deird1]

*nods*

Generally speaking, yeah.

[rahirah]

There's some evidence that vampires get tougher and harder to kill with age (The Master, Kaikistos needing to be killed extra hard) but I don't think it's ever been stated definitively in canon that they get stronger. I don't think that it's an unreasonable extrapolation that they do, but I'd definitely class it as na extrapolation rather than hard canon.

OTOH I think it's also reasonable to assume that Angel has more brute strength than Spike simply because he's bigger and bulkier.