evil vampires are not so nice

[deird1]

So, over on Mark Watches, the comments are discussing Angel. And someone just said this:

Vampire Spike was never as evil as Angelus (considered one of hte most evil vamps ever) he just does the killing bit because he truly enjoys it. He's not a good guy, doesn't try to be, doesn't pretend to be, but he isn't so evil as to actually want to tear someone mentally to pieces.

Hmm.

I responded by pointing out this line of Spike's:

Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she’ll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they’ll still cry when you… ‘cause it’s not worth it if they don’t cry.

...and the answer I got? "Yeah, but he's just saying that so Buffy will kill him."


Allow me to get my ranty pants on for a minute or so.


Spike is a vampire. An evil vampire. A VERY evil vampire.

HE IS NOT A NICE GUY WHO JUST "HAPPENED" TO KILL PEOPLE.

I am, admittedly, a pretty big Spike fan. The guy is awesome. BUT - that doesn't mean glossing over the utterly appalling stuff he did for over a century. HE'S EVIL.

When you start deciding that the evil vampire guy is so cute and fun just a big softy, and didn't really do anything so bad because it wasn't actually on screen, and actually, when he mentioned raping/killing/torturing people, he was probably just lying or exaggerating or something, because he never really wanted to be evil, he just kinda liked violence, and really, can you blame him? it's not like he's actually a bad guy.
...when you do that, I want to scream and write meta on how SPIKE IS THE WORST PERSON EVER. Which I don't actually think, so I'd appreciate it if you could stop motivating me to write it.

It minimises Spike's redemption arc, dismisses murder as irrelevant if you don't know the victim, and also gives the more vindictive Bangel fans lots of ammunition of the "rapist lover" variety, which I'd really like to never hear again.


In short? A character can do awful, evil stuff. And still be your favourite character. And you don't have to gloss over one to keep the other.

Let me leave you with a fanfic that addresses this. Because if I could write that fic, I wouldn't have to write this rant instead.

Comments

[velvetwhip]

I tend to LIKE characters for their vices so, yeah, seeing Spike as a fluffy bunny is not my cuppa.


Gabrielle

[gabrielleabelle]

Yep.

There's a reason Spike has a redemption arc. He's a bad guy at the start.

*huggles evil!Spike*

[beer_good_foamy]

Fuckin' A.

Especially this: It minimises Spike's redemption arc, dismisses murder as irrelevant if you don't know the victim. If the coal cellar story is just a story, what's the point? Why isn't Spike just a weird guy with an overabundance of peroxide? A redemption story fails the second you say "Well, that all didn't actually happen. He really didn't do any of it. And if he did, it was totally an accident. And it only happened to characters you don't know anyway."

Yes, Spike kinda liked violence. He thought it was fun for its own sake. He still did it. That's the point.

[quinara]

Well, I think there's a distinction to be made between Angelus as a sadist and Spike as a hedonist - this is part of what allows Spike to get onto a redemption arc, after all - but since I think evil is as evil does, yeah, it really doesn't make either of their crimes worse or better than each other's.

[verity]

SO MUCH THIS POST <3

[kisekileia]

Irrelevant Buffy question: Do you know if Netflix has all of Buffy? I want to watch the show from the beginning, but DVDs are really expensive, especially when I don't know if I'll like the show.

[diamondtook]

Hear hear! I find myself having to defend Spike's evilness to my mom and bff, which is just weird. Explaining how the attempted rape is not ooc because Spike totally used to rape people all the time! Isn't really my favorite necessary conversation.

[a2zmom]

Yeah, I've never understood that. He's a vampire. He murdered people for kicks. He pushed railroad spikes through people's heads. He's not a puppy.

[rahirah]

Erm. I hesitate to point out that Drew Goddard is on record as saying that he feels that (Spike was massaging the truth to get Buffy to kill him) is a reasonable interpretation of that scene. He didn't go so far as to say he felt it was the one and only correct interpretation of the scene, nor am I saying that I necessarily hold that interpretation myself, but I'm a little taken aback by the idea that we have to condemn the writer of the episode as a fluffy-bunny woobie Spike fan for allowing for the possibility.

[pocochina]

It minimises Spike's redemption arc, dismisses murder as irrelevant if you don't know the victim

So much this. If I didn't engage with fiction that explored different psychologies of violence, I wouldn't do vampires.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I get where you live. I have that emotional response to Spike apologies. Canon!Spike, I don't see him as a fluffy guy. The Spike I see is a horrific monster, and that's part of what makes his story compelling and tragic, and ultimately triumphant.

Here's the rub: emotionally it pushes my buttons. Maybe it's a dog in the manger thing? If my Spike can't be a hero, no one's Spike can? But rationally, I can't honestly think what the harm is in choosing to see Spike in another way. A person could legitimately decide that Spike is pretty much all talk and that he's been secretly rescuing people all along. Writers with a capital 'W' retcon things all the time. I'm not sure how retconning with a motivation to make money is somehow more noble than retconning because someone prefers it when the guys they are attracted to are not mass murderers.

[lynnenne]

Spike is my favorite character because he was evil. Nice, well-adjusted characters make for boring fiction!

[lirazel]

I think, as has been said upthread, that Spike was putting the absolute worst spin he could on his actions in that moment: it was a very manipulative thing to drive Buffy to stake him. BUT. That doesn't make him any less evil, just a different kind than he was advertising in that moment. And yes: I very much hate the idea that he wasn't really all that bad. Of course he was. He was flat-out evil. That's the point of his arc. From good (or at least weak) to evil and back again.

[jesuswasbatman]

I'm torn on this, because I think that Spike was very evil but that the line in question was out of the blue and a bad idea. As I see it, Spike used to kil people for sensual pleasure and excitement, but didn't share Angelus's sadistic love of torture for no purpose. (But he'd torture someone to find out where the beer was.)

But that in itself was very, very evil, and making him the same as Angelus gives too much respect to amoral fans who think killing people for fun or money is cool, and that only extreme sadism counts as evil

[timetravellingbunny]

That was you? I replied to that thread with this:

I'm a Spike fan and I see no reason to doubt what he said. The guy was introduced as a really evil mass-murdering vampire - funny, charming, devoted to his girlfriend - but still really evil. Just because we are later shocked by Angelus being even more evil, is no reason to idealize and whitewash Evil!Soulless!Unchipped Spike. If Angelus was known as the worst vampire ever in the Watchers books, Spike was called the second worst. They were both more notorious and dangerous than your average vampire. It's like, just because the other guy is a bigger jerk, doesn't mean you're nice.

Spike's character journey wouldn't be as amazing if he hadn't started from being a really evil vampire.

[spuffy_luvr]

THIS is everything I feel about Spike, and I am a huge Spike fan and shipper of Spuffy. Besides that one line, there were actually several others 'cut' from S7. So I personally don't believe Spike said it just to push Buffy's buttons, even if you could interpret it that way based on what made the final cut. In the scene in the church, where Buffy discovers he has his soul, they ended up rewriting quite a bit (if you compare the transcripts to the shooting scripts). And one thing specifically left out is Spike talking about how he raped and murdered for over a century.

There were other signs of his 'evil' nature that got left out of previous seasons. In Smashed, I think it was, he prepped his crypt with whips and chains for what he hoped would be a 'romantic' encounter with Buffy. *Shudders* I suspect the writers often cut some of these more potent reminders in order not to lose sympathy for such a popular character. Just my personal suspicions, however.

Spike obviously enjoyed a different brand of evil than Angelus... but does that make him less evil? I can't buy into that.

I suppose one could say that he is less evil than Angelus in that he WAS redeemable (maybe) when soulless, whereas Angelus was evil through and through. But that doesn't negate Spike's previous evil in any way.

I love Spike because of his redemption arc, and because he chose redemption, even when soulless. Minimizing his evil takes away from how powerfully different Spike is, to me. In a sense, his ability to choose to turn good means that it was a choice to be evil... and you might say that makes his evil worse. This leads into whether or not vampires have free will or not, and is *that* what makes Spike different, and we could get very metaphysical and philosophical here. Which would make my brain hurt.

You wanting to scream that he's the worst person ever when people turn him into a fluffy evil vampire - OMG I not so long ago wrote a similar post due to the exact same feelings. You're more coherent than I, though. :)

*Shameless self-promotion* I wrote an entire story for this last round of Seasonal Spuffy due to that line of Spike's, and the others that were cut from the same scene (such as "You never met the real me").

[red_satin_doll]

Selenak's fic is probably one of the best buffyverse fics I've ever read. In over 16 years, how many fanfics actually bother to make us stop and consider the victims? How many authors actually bother to stop and consider that.
Which is actually troubling in it's own right, when I consider it.