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another way in which Aussie English is simply better
Just been having a big forum discussion about what "sauce" is.
This all started because of someone mentioning different names for different foods, depending on where you were from. And someone disputed the idea of "ketchup" being "tomato sauce".
At which point I tuned in...
Me: And tomato sauce is absolutely ketchup. Or rather... I've never seen ketchup, and only heard of it in American books/tv, in which it is being used in precisely the way I'd use tomato sauce. So if I hear "ketchup", I'm going to mentally substitute "sauce".
To which an American, appalled that I was misunderstanding what ketchup was, gave me a definition.
Helpful American: Ketchup, catsup, katsup, or any of the other ways to spell it, isn't strictly speaking tomato sauce, as I understand it. Ketchup is, according to the WikiP, "The ingredients in a typical modern ketchup are tomato concentrate, vinegar, sweetener (corn syrup, high-fructose corn syrup, sucrose, or other sugar), salt, spice and herb extracts (including celery), spice and garlic powder. Allspice, cloves, cinnamon, onion and other vegetables may be included."
...which is what I meant by tomato sauce.
I found this confusing.
In the mean time, someone else was getting confused by me.
Confused American: So what would you call the substance that goes on pizza, to distinguish it from the stuff that goes on french fries (or substitute preferred term)?
And...
Another Confused American: Personally, I don't know what this 'tomato sauce' stuff is. There's tomato puree, which is tomatoes plus blender, unless you're buying commercial canned stuff in which it's tomato paste plus water. From there one may add all sorts of things to it, depending on what one intends to use it for, whereupon it becomes pizza sauce or spaghetti sauce or ketchup or what-have-you.
At this point I ran off to check Wikipedia.
So...
What Aussies Mean By Sauce
There are two relevant Wikipedia articles: this one, on "tomato sauce", and this one, on "ketchup".
"Sauce" could mean anything of that kind of gloopy consistency - although it will almost certainly be tomatoey in some way unless I specifically specify otherwise.
Then there's "tomato sauce", by which I mean ketchup. It's for putting on sausages, or maybe on hot chips, and stuff like that.
Then there's "pasta sauce", which is usually how I'd refer to tomato sauce. That's assuming it's going to go on pasta. You could, conceivably, have "pizza sauce". Although, to the American mentioned earlier, who asked what I'd put on pizza, I confusedly replied: "tomato paste, obviously". (Why would you use anything else?)
The other night I ended up solving my leftover Scotch eggs problem by having them with some heated up stuff that...
Well, I ended up describing it to my housemate as "that tomatoey, sauce-ish sort of thing, with all the chopped tomatoes in it...", because I had no idea what it had been intended for, so I didn't know what it was. Had it been for pasta? Was it pasta sauce? I was baffled.
So really, all I wanted to say was: yes, I do mean ketchup, that's what tomato sauce is.
(Also, just to stir the pot: America, I don't know where you get your weird naming conventions from, but "marinara" means it comes from the sea. It should have fish in it. The stuff you're mistakenly calling marinara is "napolitana".)
This all started because of someone mentioning different names for different foods, depending on where you were from. And someone disputed the idea of "ketchup" being "tomato sauce".
At which point I tuned in...
Me: And tomato sauce is absolutely ketchup. Or rather... I've never seen ketchup, and only heard of it in American books/tv, in which it is being used in precisely the way I'd use tomato sauce. So if I hear "ketchup", I'm going to mentally substitute "sauce".
To which an American, appalled that I was misunderstanding what ketchup was, gave me a definition.
Helpful American: Ketchup, catsup, katsup, or any of the other ways to spell it, isn't strictly speaking tomato sauce, as I understand it. Ketchup is, according to the WikiP, "The ingredients in a typical modern ketchup are tomato concentrate, vinegar, sweetener (corn syrup, high-fructose corn syrup, sucrose, or other sugar), salt, spice and herb extracts (including celery), spice and garlic powder. Allspice, cloves, cinnamon, onion and other vegetables may be included."
...which is what I meant by tomato sauce.
I found this confusing.
In the mean time, someone else was getting confused by me.
Confused American: So what would you call the substance that goes on pizza, to distinguish it from the stuff that goes on french fries (or substitute preferred term)?
And...
Another Confused American: Personally, I don't know what this 'tomato sauce' stuff is. There's tomato puree, which is tomatoes plus blender, unless you're buying commercial canned stuff in which it's tomato paste plus water. From there one may add all sorts of things to it, depending on what one intends to use it for, whereupon it becomes pizza sauce or spaghetti sauce or ketchup or what-have-you.
At this point I ran off to check Wikipedia.
So...
What Aussies Mean By Sauce
There are two relevant Wikipedia articles: this one, on "tomato sauce", and this one, on "ketchup".
"Sauce" could mean anything of that kind of gloopy consistency - although it will almost certainly be tomatoey in some way unless I specifically specify otherwise.
Then there's "tomato sauce", by which I mean ketchup. It's for putting on sausages, or maybe on hot chips, and stuff like that.
Then there's "pasta sauce", which is usually how I'd refer to tomato sauce. That's assuming it's going to go on pasta. You could, conceivably, have "pizza sauce". Although, to the American mentioned earlier, who asked what I'd put on pizza, I confusedly replied: "tomato paste, obviously". (Why would you use anything else?)
The other night I ended up solving my leftover Scotch eggs problem by having them with some heated up stuff that...
Well, I ended up describing it to my housemate as "that tomatoey, sauce-ish sort of thing, with all the chopped tomatoes in it...", because I had no idea what it had been intended for, so I didn't know what it was. Had it been for pasta? Was it pasta sauce? I was baffled.
So really, all I wanted to say was: yes, I do mean ketchup, that's what tomato sauce is.
(Also, just to stir the pot: America, I don't know where you get your weird naming conventions from, but "marinara" means it comes from the sea. It should have fish in it. The stuff you're mistakenly calling marinara is "napolitana".)
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Or the Americans picked up marinara out of the marinara/napolitana options in Italy, then over time "marinara" became defunct in Italy and now it's called napolitana.
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Any idea when Italians started emigrating to America? If there was a big difference between that and them coming to Australia maybe?
* in the non-seafoody sense of the word, anyway
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It reminds me of how English splintered off and Brit/American/Aussie English all evolved in different ways. We pick and choose what we like and what catches on (or dies off) might live on in another place.
All I can say is that marinara isn't an English word, so I presume it was brought over from Italy with the sauce itself.
Any idea when Italians started emigrating to America?
"During the mass emigration from Italy during the century between 1876 to 1976, the U.S. was the largest single recipient of Italian immigrants in the world." Source
When did the Italians emigrate to Australia? It sounds like this big emigration happened worldwide at about the same time.